Amnon Rubinstein on Israel

Tell me about Start-Up Nation.

This is a new book which has become very successful in America, though it is less well-known in England. It is a book which seeks to explain the economic success of Israel. Israel has withstood the recent crunch, the recent depression, more successfully than other industrial societies and this book seeks to explain that. One of the things that the authors explain is the spirit of leadership and entrepreneurship which is part and parcel of the fact that most Israelis serve in the Israeli army. The regular army of Israel educates its draftees to a position of leadership so when they enter university they are already more adult, more experienced, more likely to be go-getters and they have more knowledge of technology. So I thought this was interesting because I think it’s a fact that many people are not aware of. And there is a flipside to this, which is that those elements in Israeli society that do not go into the army, namely the Arabs and the ultra-orthodox Jews, miss something important. They are the poorer elements of Israeli society and the fact that they do not go into the army, and have many children, exacerbates their position. This explains why the social gap in Israeli society grows by leaps and bounds from year to year. The ultra-orthodox don’t go into the army because it’s part of a political concession, given to them by successive governments who need their support in the Knesset. It’s a very controversial issue back home. These two poor elements make things worse by not participating in the army which contributes so much to the economic success of Israel. 

You are suggesting by your tone that the Arabs would be welcome in the Israeli army. Is that true? 

They wouldn’t dream of serving in the Israeli army!

Clearly. But would it be possible theoretically? 

Theoretically it would be possible because you have other cases of national minorities who serve in the army of the host country, such as the Japanese in World War II who fought the Germans and many other ethnic minorities – including Jews everywhere. But Israel has decided to submit to the demands of the Arabs that they not serve in the army. This book doesn’t deal with this exemption, this book deals with the army and the spirit of the army that is at least partially responsible for Israel’s amazing success in recent years. 

So what does Israel rely on economically?

High-tech, agriculture and, to a very small degree, on tourism, but high-tech is the real engine of growth.

Tell me about Palestine Betrayed.

Efraim Karsh is a professor here at King’s College London and the book shows the missed opportunities that the Palestinians had, both in 1947 and afterwards. In 1947 the UN decided to partition Palestine, which up until then was in the British mandatory system, into two states, one Jewish and one Arab. The Arabs boycotted even the deliberations of the UN and were against it, hoping, as everyone else thought they would, to overcome the fledgling Jewish state. But it didn’t happen, and since then they’ve had other opportunities of getting their own Palestinian Arab state which they have missed, whether on purpose or not is debatable. This book talks about the historical aspects of the present conflict and Karsh believes Palestine was betrayed by those who refused compromise. It’s an important book and a singular book because most books on this subject attack Israel. He tries to establish the responsibility of the Arabs for the failure of the partition of Palestine. 

I’ve spoken to lots of people in these FiveBooks interviews about a one-state solution for Israel. What would Karsh think of that?

The one-state solution would be the end of Israel as a Jewish state, the end of the Israeli democracy, and it would mean probably that most Jews, if not all Jews, would leave historical Palestine and seek to find refuge in the democratic western world, wherever they would be welcome. Because one state would mean a Muslim majority and a Muslim majority would mean the end of a western democracy as we know it. 

So you see the two-state solution as the only option?

The only option, yes. An option which both the UN and the world community have opted for on different occasions.

Let’s talk about Old New Land. 

This is an old book, a 19th-century book, but strangely I find it very relevant to today’s Israel because Herzl talks of a democratic and Jewish state. It is easy to mock his book because he describes Israel in terms of the 19th-century Europe, with luxury boats playing Viennese waltzes, taking Jews to Palestine where they all live happily ever after with the Arabs. We all know this didn’t take place but his vision of a Jewish state is something that I personally can identify with. He talks about a liberal, secular Jewish state, a separation between church and state. But it’s not anti-Jewish. It’s a state where even the old temple is being rebuilt side by side with the Al Akhsa mosque and there is also a temple of universal peace and justice. The whole theme of the book is co-existence with the non-Jewish minority in the Jewish state and the victory of the tolerant liberal party over the intolerant right-wing nationalist party. So, this is the sort of Israel I would like to see, in which state and religion are separate, in which liberalism is victorious and in which non-Jews can live happily side by side with Jews.